How does Spider Web happen?

So, you know how you get those micr-scratch looking circular scratches? Someone told me it's called "Spider Web". Anyways, how does that happen? Just over time all cars do that? Or is it because you are getting it hand dried?

ANY kind of friction applied to a paint finish over time will mar the finish, because most cars are clear coated the "clear" top layer of paint will magnify any imperfections in the finis, thus the need for periodic maintenance of the finish through polishing and waxing and if really bad through compounding and or wet sanding.

and they are there for good...the term buff it out, means dull the edges so the are less visable, but the "scratches" "spider web" or what ever you want to call the are there for good.

They can be "removed" if they aren't too deep to safely remove enough paint.

Okay, so I've always thought it was basically a "minor" scratch. Nothing too deep that a decent compound job wouldn't take off. After all, you try to feel with your finger nail and there is no "debth" to the scratch. Therefore, I concluded that you can "buff" it out with compound polish.

BUT, I remember struggling desperate with this one black Nissan truck. Her finish was good but wanted to get those "spider web" out. We figured a compound polish will do the trick. But to our dismay, Like Homer said, it seemed to be there for good. We could hide it with wax and all but as soon as you wipe it off with APC, it's back again.

Now, I'm not sure if wet sanding would have done the trick, but we didn't want to wet sand her truck since the paint was in decent shape to begin with. She was just one of those ultra picky car owner who always seeked perfection. After few more polishing and what not, she was just content with hiding by wax. So, nowdays, I'm really careful when I tell people about removing spider webs.

So, I agree with Homer. It must be that Spider Webs tiny, but really deeper scratches than you may commonly think.

Also, on a side note, I have observed even a brand new car will have some amount of spider. I have yet to see a brand new car that did NOT have spider web. I guess in the showroom if they have good coat of wax on it, it may be harder to see, but even in showrooms, I have seen more cars WITH spider web than without. So, I'm beginning to wonder if it is at all a smart attempt to try and remove them as it appears that a smallest amount of fricktion from anything will cause spider web. It's just a matter of time before the clear coat finishes meet their ultimate death by billion cuts!

like jmoran said, any friction will cause this to happen.

I remember when I worked at a car wash I had a regular customer that had a black Chevy Trailblazer that had some kind of dealer installed sealant on the paint. It was pretty awesome, almost like a never ending wax job. “spider webs” I call them “swirl marks” were still visible on it, but not nearly as much as an average black vehicle. And actually it was only the front of the car. I worked there 5 ½ years, and he was the only customer I knew of that had that on their paint. Again, all I remember is that when I asked him about it, he said it was part of the deal he got for the car, and briefly explained it to me.

Yeah, I heard something like that, too. I don't see many of them now, but just few years ago, I remember seeing lots of dealerships offering something like that. I forgot what they called, but it had some sort of funky brand name. I think it started with letter "z" or something. It costed like $500 and they treat your paint with something where you never have to wax. I was always skeptical of it though.

I never had anyone who got it, so I can't really attest to real life experience. I'm still skeptical. I'm thiking that if it worked really that good, why aren't those dealerships offering that service any more? Surely, $500 is well worth investment if I don't ever have to wax. But then again, if such product really worked that good, I'm sure the auto makers would have added such to their paint finish as an option or as a base model to up their edge against competitors. Like, BMW or Benz would of jumped on it quick by now if it really worked that good, you know what I mean?

Most new cars have swirl marks on them because the first thing the dealers do when they get them is wash them. They too often use a friction machine, and they don't prep like a good tunnel would do. They just roll them through and stick them on the lot.

Maybe they were using Zymöl before it became available at WalMart.

All paint has flaws, even new paint, it just so happens that the darker the color the more reflection you get and the more apt you are to see the spider webbing. Can you remove all spider webbing? Depends on the extent of the damage to the clear and how much clear you have to work with. In most cases detailing is removing some and hiding the rest. Polishes and glazes are meant to fill the imperfections in the paint and waxes seal the polish in for a period of time. Once the wax wears off, so does the polish and voila the damage reappears. Meticulous buffing, sometimes using more than one level of compound and in some cases wet sanding in different stages as well can and will remove most if not all "spider webbing", but the truth is the average customer is not going to pay you what it would it cost to do the job right. So, polish and "fill" with a cost of wax is more the norm.

I agree, jmoran. Public will gawk at price of "removeing" spider webbing the right way. Now, speaking of price, what would you say would be a fair price for 3 stage compound-polish-wax service should cost for average shaped sedan? If you need detail, let's say it is 08' Toyota Camry, Silver, and decent clear coat to work with. Only basic stuff inside like vacuum and windows. We charge $124. That sound about right?

John is offering you the most practical insight, and I'd like to expand on it a bit.

The detail business has a lot of terms that seem to take on a life of their own, as did the bodyshop business before it. But the paint & body business has become increasingly more sophisticated due to education provided by the paint manufacturers and ICAR. The detail business will eventually find its own comfort zone with uniformity of terms, too.

The basics about spider webs or swirls or scuff are... they are all visual signs of paint imperfections or damages that are essentially "scratches" or invasive marks below the surface of the topcoat.

Conventional single-stage paint systems of (non-clearcoat) allow easier paint correction because a detailer could chase them further into the finish. But clearcoat systems have a very thin layer of clear "paint film" that contains protective sunscreens. The more of that film that is removed, the greater chance for sun damage and fading. As well, that clearcoat layer acts to optically enhance the color as well as protect the color match. That risk of compromise is why detailers are cautioned to avoid exceeding a certain paint film depth in their correction process. Once the clearcoat is compromised, a fresh layer of clearcoat is recommended. There will be little doubt whan you break through the clearcoat because a noticeable change in surface color and reflectivity is instantly identifiable. Cure: Refinishing the clearcoat.

Scratches of all kinds are invasive marks that break the outer surface of the finish. Some mild scuff or scratch can be easily remedied with a moderate buffing with a foam pad & polish. Deeper scratches require an inspection to see if the clearcoat has been seriously compromised. In any event, the repair of any scratch requires that the surface is restored to a high degree of uniformity; "smoothness". Essentially, polishing is a smoothing process. Often, sanding can smooth a larger area more uniformly since the removal of the scratch is actually a very subtle blending of the surrounding area of the blemish to meet the depth of the scratch. The larger the affected area, the greater the need for leveling or "planing" of the surface to a uniformly acceptable blend. The objective: Achieving as close to a perfectly "flat" surface as possible will produce the deepest reflective shine and clearest "distinction of image" or DOI.

Since the term "spider web" often refers to a widely spread affected surface area, the fix needs to anticipate a more comprehensive blend. Fortunately, many small areas can be treated on a spot-basis where "spider webbing" is tightly clustered.

One misunderstanding is that spider webbing is a defect in the painting process, which is not true. Mistakenly identifying "cracking" (a paint defect) as spider webbing is incorrect. The two are not related.

Hope this added info is helpful.

-Steve

Tom,

To determine whether or not that is a fair price starts with you. You should determine what your shop labor rate is based on all your expenses and overhead and then add your profit margin to it. Then multiply that number times the amount of time to do the job. Is it a fair price when you do that? Remember what may seem fair to the customer may not be fair to you the business owner. From there I would establish a starting price based on a typical exterior detail job with an actual estimate to determine time and price or just establish that the shop labor rate is lets say $50/hr and we estimate that your vehicle will take 3 hours, thus $150.

Hope that helps.

John Moran

Thanks for more detail explanation, Smokun.

Now, how does that "crack" in paint happen? Some people refer to it as "crow feet". Is that a paint defect? I have seen it on brand new car too. Just certain spots. I'm assuming that there is no fix for it other than to repaint. Is that correct?

The automotive paint defect termed "cracking" refers to a series of deep cracks resembling mud cracks in a dry pond. Often in the form of three-legged stars and in no definite pattern, they are usually in the color coat and sometimes the undercoat as well.

The origin and potential causes:

• Excessive film thickness. Excessively thick topcoats magnify normal stresses and strains which can result in cracking even under normal conditions.
• Materials not uniformly mixed.
• Insufficient flash times between coats.
• Incorrect use of additives.
• Substrate is too hot or cold.
• Use of product coats incompatible with each other.
• Omitting the activator when mixing a 2K product.

Prevention techniques:

• Don't pile on topcoats. Allow sufficient flash and drying time between coats.
• Do not dry by fanning with compressed air from the spray gun.
• Stir all pigmented undercoats and topcoats thoroughly.
• Read and carefully follow recommendations in the Technical Data Sheet(s). Additives not specifically designed for a color coat may weaken the final paint film and make it more sensitive to cracking.

Remedy:

The affected areas must be sanded to a smooth finish, or in extreme cases removed down to the bare metal, and a full refinish system reapplied.

-Steve

Cracking, spider webs, swirls, scratches all four separate problems:

1)Cracking and spider webs are both below the clear coat (just put your fingers in celophane wrapper and see if you can feel either...cracking looks likes a random pattern...spider webs follow the sun and wrap around it's refection uniformily
2)you can see spider webs in new cars...it is more evident on bright days, late in the afternoon, with darker colors...but I have seen it on a white vehicle while driving along side of me on the highway...fresh wax increases the reflection of the clearcoat layer which hides the webs but does not get rid of them
3)swirls are high speed rotary buffer scratches in the outer layer of paint that appear like worms on top of any spider webs...they are more evident in the sun's reflection but don't appear to circle that reflection
4)scratches can be felt (especially if you get rid of the oil effect on your fingers by using a cigarette wrapper)....they are often more visible in the shade instead the bright sun (different than spider webs)

Once we had a full service customer with a brand new light baby blue Ford F150. After it's first wash, I was hammered by the customer for scratching it from head to toe with this almost perfect web patterned layer of scratches. I told her (yes a her) that we didn't scratch it but our soaps must have removed all the wax the dealer had put on it to make it look good. We waxed it for her....she was fine.
Two months later, I get this call...she's back and saying we scratched her truck again. I had to ask her...please don't come back with this truck. It was the worst color I had ever seen for showing spider webs...I don't know if she was just stupid, didn't believe me, or liked getting a free wax job for the price of a car wash.

Late one afternoon, walk around a dealership lot (preferrably American) and look at the sun's reflection in the dark colors and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Sorry, Jimmy... it really pains me to disagree but "it just ain't so".

It's important to remember that "brand new" doesn't speak to the paint condition, but rather the chronological newness of the vehicle. To view virgin paint finish, you must be at the factory viewing prior to any post-painting clean-ups. Afterwards, the vehicle is subjected to all kinds of conditions and various clean-ups that run the gamut from very sophisticated... to embarrassingly inept. And that's before the dealer ever sees the car. If the average consumer actually saw what a vehicle might endure (a luck of the draw), they'd be shocked... and not want to take delivery of their "new" vehicle. Depending on the production line, transportation exposure and processing center, quite a few sustain paint finish damage that is repaired at distribution centers and port reconditioning facilities. Translation: various stages of refinishing (painting). Happily, they still retain that magical new-car smell!

Technically, swirls, scuffs, spider webs and holograms are all scratches. Irrespective of how deep they may be or how subtle and elusive they might be to see, they are all SCRATCHES. How they are made and what lighting is best to identify them are collateral to the fact that they are correctable with proper corrective buffing technique and job-matched pads & products.

Cracking, on the other hand, is a paint imperfection that is an actual internal defect emanating from the application and curing process. You can buff till the cows come home... and not have any remedial affect on cracking.

As for HIDING scratches with fillers designed to conceal the imperfections, there are many polishes and glazes that offer short-term fixes. To check a paint finish for effective scratch removal, it is a common practice to softly swab & wipe the affected area with isopropyl alcohol to strip any cover-ups and view the bare-naked paint finish. It is ideal to examine the paint finish in 2 separate lighting environments: sunlight and fluorescent lighting.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Use extreme caution when using isopropyl alcohol because it is combustible and burns with an almost indistinguishable flame.

Hope this helps...

-Steve

Steve, instead of using isopropyl alcoho, can you use goof off? Will goof off achieve the same purpose of stripping down to bare paint?

-tom

Okay, so the main discrepency is whether the web is on top or bottom? It looks like everyone is agreening that "cracking" happend underneath the clearcoat, but there is a discrepency as to where the web lies.

Frankly, I would listen to both. Because it makes sense that scratches appear on top coat. But then it make sense that the web is underneat the top coat, because it is virtually impossible to remove. So, I'm still clueless. But one fact for sure is that every car has web and it really serves no purpose to try to remove them. Best thing is to keep wax on it to "hide" it while protecting your car. That a good sum up?

-tom

Steve, thanks for sharing that "rare" info about the what happens at the factory. I'm gonna try to dig in Youtube to see if they might have any secret footage.

Tom...

I think Goof-Off has detergent which may leave a cloudy residue... which is why isopropyl alcohol is used as a benchmark in repair inspections.

As for your feeling that all finishes have spider webbing, I offer this. As any seasoned show-car detailer can attest, spider webs are removable by buffing. All too often they are created by abrasions during the washing or drying process. Quite often the toweling will be the culprit. They are more noticeable on deep conventional non-clearcoat finishes but clearcoat gets them too. Essentially, you can fix the problem and eventually recreate it by routine drying; a vicious cycle. They do not re-appear. Instead, new ones simply take their place.

As you may know, most automotive paint systems use some form of water-base urethane. Once buffed by hand or machine, the friction created causes an electrical charge that actually attracts dust. Wiping or even washing the dust may result in spider-webbing simply due to micro fallout (dust, etc.). Using an anti-static spray & wipe helps. A thorough flushing prior to actual friction washing is essential. Minute particles such as silt can also have an impact. Bottom-Line: It is easier to manage the spider webbing with cosmetic spray & wipe procedures on a frequent basis.

Years ago, Meguiar's #7 Glaze was in everyone's detail pack at most Concours events. Ferrari used to include a bottle with their cars. Reason? It was a very oily glaze that never failed to provide a deep wet-look shine that really stood out. A quick tightening up of the finish simply required a gentle wipe with a soft towel damp with cold water, and hand-buff dry. Then came Meguiar's Final Inspection and all its derivatives that offered a quick spray & wipe. Easy to use anywhere, no water required.

-Steve

Tom,

Easy way to remember is Spider webbing is repairable, given the time, effort, know how and money(customers money)and cracking is repairable only be re-painting.

As for "New Cars" I can attest to what Steve is talking about, having worked with New Car Dealers for the better part of the past 22 years we see damage on them all the time. If people knew what we had to do to their cars sometimes to make their "New" car look "New" they would be appalled. The worst one's that we see are the dealer trades (bought from another dealer). Most times these are cars that have been in inventory for quite some time and the dealer getting rid of it is only to happy to trade it. It's amazing to see a "Brand New" $140K Black Mercedes S-Class that has been sitting on the lot for 9 months show up and have us have to "cut" the entire finish and in some cases wet sand the paint to remove bird crap stains or leaf stains or sap stains. When we are done with it, it looks Brand New, but if you saw it before you would think it was a used car. Rule of thumb, if the dealer does not have your vehicle in inventory, do not agree to have them "locate" one for you. Either go to a dealer that has one in inventory or order one direct from the factory.

John Moran

Thanks for the explanation, Steve.

I learn so much from you guys. How do you know all this? I'm going on 2 years on this biz, and as soon as I feel like I know enough, I find that I need to learn more. Thanks!

-tom

Holy cow, John. I would have never thought that they would do "wet" sanding on brand new Mercedez. And now come to thing of it, I have seen some "bran new" cars that had some swirls. I asked customer if they had buffed recently or bought it used only to get a nasty stare back as if I'm an idiot: "What are you talking about, I just got this month ago!". I felt as though I had lost all my credibility and the customer may not come back. But, ah ha, I was right, after all!!!!! Ah, if only they knew. I wish I knew this before. It would have saved few customers. I think some may think that our tunnel made those swirls.

I'm glad to have so much better understanding about the paint thank to you all!!!!!!!! I love this forum. I would love to see you all one day and have beer or two, or three, or four, or bunch!!!!! :)

One final note regarding your last comment, Tom.
Irrespective of the paint correction repair (wet or dry sanding, aggressive high-speed buffing, etc), if you see swirl marks,the job is not done. Swirl marks are an indication that the buffing technique needs improvement... or the wrong mix of job-matched products and pads was used. Swirls an other scratches are definitely removable. But remember that the level of excellence has a direct relationship to compensation for time, materials and expertise.

Professional detailing is a business, and business requires a fair return for your overall investment. You should make money on EVERYTHING you do, so avoid ever having "to steal from Peter... to pay Paul".

The Yin and Yang of the detailing business is the reality that you must be fairly compensated for ALL of your work.

-Steve

Respectfully, what I call spider webbing is all over the vehicle and too uniform a pattern to have been caused by abrasion on the surface. They wrap around the reflection of the sun on the paint. You can often see abrasion marks (scratches) on top of the webs and going against the grain of the webs.

Come by for a visit Steve...let's go look at some vehicles have lunch and the loser pays...Jimmy

Jimmy...

It sounds like the ever-present debate regarding spider webs is more one of semantics... and the free-wheeling use (or misuse) of terminology and definition.

Take for example the detailing industry. Quite often, terms are simply created by well intentioned craftsmen to more clearly describe a paint condition, often when a perfectly suitable term is already in use elsewhere... but unbeknownst to the detail craftsman. Understand that the detailing business is fragmented, with little universality between the various market segments. Bosyshop people use one "dialect", carwashers use another, and the automotive OEM has still others. Restoration craftsman have their terminology, and auction reconditioning pros still another. And then, there are the various manufacturers of surface-care products that have long been known to create marketing terms that become part of the working vernacular.

As a writer and author, I have always had a love for words and their corresponding meanings. As a carwash professional, I see other terms (brushless, touchless) in use that clearly confound a visitor. As a well seasoned detailer, still more terms. As a consultant to all of the parties, I have a vast cross-reference of terminology that is applied to all frames of reference. And as a multi-industry operations expert, I sometimes create new terms (flex-serve) to describe operational processes. Accordingly, as an educated onlooker and critic, I can empathize with the need for the culling of terms with varying definitions.

However, as a true lover of the language, I have always respected "words" and the corresponding meaning... with dedicated precision.

That said, there is little need for winners and losers in this joust. Nevertheless, I seldom ignore a "free lunch"!

Regards...

-Steve

You can hide but you can't remove webs.
Let me pour a bucket of tire soap on your
freshly waxed, dark vehicle and I will reveal
any and all webs...with out touching the paint with
any abrasion.

Webs are revealed by washing the wax off.