Filament vs. Cloth

I was not around in the days of filament brush's only been around for cloth and foam. I use all cloth currently and have read and heard a lot about foam. I am trying to find out somethings about filament. I have heard it cleans real well but not much more. I would like know if anybody can inlighten me to the good the bad and the ugly of filament. Thinking about running on my 21" lower rocker brushes to try and get a better clean.

Thanks
Shannon

The use of poly filaments in carwash got a bad rap due mainly to some gasoline station and convenience store operators who would cut back on the amount of chemical being used to reduce operating expense. This reduced the amount of lubricity causing the filament to make marrings, microscopic marks or lines, that would impair the appearance of paint. Otherwise, filament did a good job of cleaning. Today, you have closed-cell foam that not only cleans well and is virtually damage-free but also has been documented as improving shine as it cleans. If you use enough of the right chemical, filament or soft-cloth will produce excellent results as rocker brushes.

Adding to Bob's comments, plastic filament brushes did NOT scratch the finish of cars as was commonly claimed by the less sophisticated within the industry.

Instead, filament actually left a thin residue mark of the plastic when adequate lubricity was absent. Operators who used quality detergent with good lubricity never experienced problems.

Residue transfer marks left on the surface of the finish came from the plastic filament and were easily removed with polish.

Shortsighted carwash operations that used cheap soaps were a boon to detailers who often erroneously claimed the marks were "scratches" simply to boost their perceived skills. It was not a proud moment for automatic carwash owners or the ICA. But many suppliers laughed all the way to the bank.

When Belanger introduced cloth washing fabric to the industry, many carwash suppliers got on the "plastic filament scratches cars" bandwagon, amplifying the bogus claims merely to boost their conversion sales of cloth that supposedly "buffed" the finish while it washed the car. Ironically, early cloth substitutes required even more lubricity with an even slipperier quality to wash properly... while also avoiding the damage of cloth pulling trim from cars.

Some opportunistic carwashers even ran radio ads shouting about the damages from plastic filament brushes, using the change in material as a competitive edge. That's where many of our village idiots came up with the "brushless" carwash theme. Trouble was, consumers still saw "brushes" in the wash, seldom seeing the difference when the equipment was spinning. Some sanctimonious car wash pros affected by their myopic "tunnel-vision"were often the victims of the foolish"carwash-speak". All in all, it was an embarrassing time for ICA and professional carwash operators.

The lesson learned was: Convince a lot of ignorant people to make bogus statements... and you can create believers of just about anything... and even change the way things are done. P.T. Barnum was the forerunner of many carwash operators!

I agree with everything said above. I had a IBA with filament and it did a great job of cleaning cars. It needed the proper soap with lubrication just like any friction material. When I switched to the new foam material it actually required more soap for proper cleaning.

Up until the last day I owned or operated a carwash about 11-years ago, I had to answer questions and convince many motorists that cleaning materials used in car washes do not scratch paint.

Many of my neighbors wash at home in the driveway. Being a carwash consultant, I have asked them why they don't use a professional wash.

All of them say it is their belief the wash will scratch their vehicle's paint.

Just imagine the vast number of people who may still believe this and the countless millions of dollars in potential revenue it has probably cost the carwash industry due to the lack of stewardship.

Consequently, Shannon, you may want to consider the potential value of educating customers and potential customers as to the many benefits of the soft-cloth or foam washing materials that you use in your wash when advertising and promoting the business.

It is never too late to educate.

Years ago brushes (filament) became a dirty word in car washes. It spread like a disease - if only we could that much bang for our buck with advertising. Didn't matter if it marked the car or not - if it was in your wash and your competition had cloth then you became a "less caring" operator than the other guy. The competition would use his new technology of claiming "brushless" to attract your customers - and it slowly worked. Not wanted to be sidelined - car wash operators joined in to purchase cloth.
I had filament in the eighties. Cleaned cars great, no marks or "so called scrathes". Operators began to claim any slow business on the "other guy" who had cloth that was perhaps taking our customers. Today's customer is more fussy than customers of 20 years ago. Todays customer is unforgiving and not willing to understand. Early on there was a novelty about going to professional car wash. It was almost as if you were high class - that upper level person who could afford to have someone else do it for you. You could have had filament and probably brooms - as long as there weren't any marks on the paint. Today people want in and out quick wand and a superb job. They don't want to spend 20 to 30 min. at a wash and have to then inspect their car. God forbid if they find something, because then its payback for making them wait the the 20 or 30 min.
I think educating the public to come back to filament would be difficult, but I also thought roll overs would never come back and they did. Took my roll over out in 1994. Caused damages to window visors, roof racks and once caved in the back window of a benz. Perhaps roll overs are better counterbalanced today - so it seems and damages are less. Point to my rambling is that if there the possibility of an inquiry from a car wash customer about anything that appears to have happened in your wash then consider not having it - thus the birth of touchless.

I operate 4 locations. One is filament only. One was cloth only and I replaced some cloth for lower details and the bottom of Van High side wheels to get better wheel cleaning. One is still cloth only and one is foam and cloth.
Busiest location is filament only. Also the shortest tunnel. The key with all equipment is to inject a lubricating soap into the water feeds spraying on the equipment. For spinning equipment the spray should hit the wheel about 15 degres before contact. Some equip is set up by mfgrs so the spray hits 180 degrees before contact and much of the lubrcating solution is thrown off before contact. This makes the material shed dirt and keeps it lubricated extending material life and reducing any abrasion level. Lubricating liquid is better than foaming on the soap for reducing the friction level. Depending on your setup you may neeed a fresh water rinse before the DA to get rid of the soap to help get a dry car.

If you are EE and you only use it on lower details the customers may never notice. If they do you can have a sample on hand and show them how soft it is.

Sadly, our industry was it;'s own worst enemy. When they sold cloth they out it next to a petrified piece of filament as a walkway dispay. Now I have seen displays of a lambscloth type material next to petrified cloth and petrified filament. Funny thing is that location operator had otherlocations with cloth. So what was he telling customers. My other locations suck?

As an aside. Do you have room for a second set of lower details? Would double coverage be a solution?

Thank you for all the information. I do have room for another set of lower details, matter of fact they are sitting in the backroom waiting to be installed. I look at foam and see the preformace and here the sound difference compared to cloth and not in a position to spend the money to make a switch. I look at the brushes we use to pre-prep cars before they enter the wash which are bacically nylon filament. I buy ones from my supplier that are super soft. I felt them one day compared to my cloth in my tunnel. It was like comparing silk to cotton and if filament brushes for the equipment feel the same way it got me thinking. I wonder just how sensitive customers are to the whole brush to soft cloth thing now a days. I know there are always going to be those few that pay attention but it seems in todays hussle and bussle world people have enough trouble putting there car in neutral when you tell them. They seem like they are just to busy on there smart phone. I think whether it is cloth or filament if there is damage noticed on a vehicle people like to assume it is was wash that caused it not little Tommy and his bike. I have been lucky with my location. I have had extremely low supposed damage claims and even lower real damage claims. As far as anntenas and mirrors is there a lower chance of damage compared to cloth. I have researched filament on the web and have seen some videos of washes with all fillament and I will tell you I love the look of the brushes spinning, things look so full and plush. Its like the old saying "Somthing old is new and somthing new is old" or something like that. I look at my kids and there "new fashions" and say hay that was from the 80's. Just my rambling thoughts.

A lot of excellent posts here. Following Earl's comments on lubricating soaps. During our days of filament washing, we also used soaps with kerosene in them, which aren't available now. They added more lubricity to the process. Filament top brushes did a great job on windshields and were easier to balance.

Today's vehicles, with clearcoat, are much more reflective than the enamels of the past. I took my red truck through a one year old wash (out of town) and they left brush marks down the lower rocker area. I thought: "If I can see these filament marks on my truck, what are his Mercedes and BMW customers seeing." To me, it's not worth the risk...even tho' most customers will never know...why take the chance.

In the good ole days, we didn't have near the quality of soaps to choose from nor did we have the high pressure equipment we have today.

True true very true!

>>reply by PanamaJim about 15 hours ago
..........Today's vehicles, with clearcoat, are much more reflective than the enamels of the past. I took my red truck through a one year old wash (out of town) and they left brush marks down the lower rocker area. I thought: "If I can see these filament marks on my truck, what are his Mercedes and BMW customers seeing....."

I submit that if the wash process was messed up to leave marks with filament the marks from that messed up process would have been the same or worse with cloth.

Filament is not the way to go with today's paints. Foam is now being cut almost as thin as filament for use on rockers, grills, etc. The advantage filament had was that it would fit in everyplace, and the transition from 1/8" diameter filament to 2" plus cloth left a little to be desired. But foam with narrow cut available, good chemistry, and higher rotational speed than cloth does everything filament did cleaning-wise and leaves none of the surface disturbance.

I haven't seen thin cut foam. Who's selling it Mark? I wonder how well it's lasting. I've found foam way outlasts cloth but it sure can clog a drain or grinder pump.

Here in Europe we install 4x4mm cut closed cell foam I think it's quite thin cut. But on c-channel cores we cut it 4x6mm.